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Blog by Ina Centaur » Chats


Infinity’s First Interesting Convo

Written by ina on Friday, 4 of January , 2008 at 12:14 pm
Tags: , , , , ,

@ the extropian’s first meeting

[10:48] Khannea Suntzu: Heya Ina
[10:48] Terence McKenna: There’s a demonstration against the local minister of the interior on Sunday.
[10:49] Terence McKenna: Hey Ina. Welcome.
[10:49] You: hey
[10:49] Khannea Suntzu: That frightening lttle fellow over there is the most knowledgeable one Ina
[10:49] You: lol
[10:49] Terence McKenna: I’m just a cryptozoological goat-sucker. Mostly harmless.
[10:50] Terence McKenna: I got the uvvy page, too.
[10:50] Khannea Suntzu giggles
[10:50] Terence McKenna: Khannea is buzzing the entire >H space in SL.
[10:50] Khannea Suntzu: It would be amusing if a few dozen people flooded in
[10:50] You: lol
[10:50] Terence McKenna: Yoicks. That would be kinda scary.
[10:51] Terence McKenna: I expected a very boring first office hour for our group.
[10:51] Terence McKenna: So, Ina, you’re an Extropian?
[10:51] You: sure..
[10:52] You: upload my brain to SL? o.O
[10:52] Terence McKenna: Extropian, as member of ExI, or the circle?
[10:52] Terence McKenna: Uploading is neat, but I’d rather not be stuck in SL for the time. That’s bordering on purgatory.
[10:52] You: hmmm not sure… i guess i am extropian in the general dictionary sense o.O
[10:52] You: lol
[10:53] You: well, i like the idea of uploading or transferring your sentience
[10:53] You: … to a nonbiological and nondegradeable medium
[10:53] Terence McKenna: All right. I was never an offical ExI member myself, though I did hang out with Natasha/Max a couple times.
[10:53] Terence McKenna: I very much like the idea, in fact I’m in love with the idea. There was a meeting in Oxford recently (May 2007) which was about making uploading mainstream.
[10:54] Khannea Suntzu: They should put it in the supermarket dammit
[10:54] You: lol
[10:54] You: is uploading already being done?
[10:54] Terence McKenna: I think we succeeded. Mainstream neuroscience people were there, and agreed whole brain emulation could be talked about with a straight face.
[10:54] You: lol. ah we are still in straight face mode…
[10:55] Terence McKenna: Only for very small values of uploading. Parts of small critters. Snail ganglions, and the like.
[10:55] Khannea Suntzu: Yah it is speculative but not wholly unthinkable
[10:55] Terence McKenna: The point is that the scanners are being developed very rapidly.
[10:55] Terence McKenna: There are at least 3 groups which have very impressive automatic scanners which can do bulk.
[10:56] Terence McKenna: The current approach is on fixated and stained blocks strictly.
[10:56] Terence McKenna: It’s a microtome procedure, aka salami slice scan.
[10:56] Terence McKenna: Cut up the salami, very thin, put each slice on the scanner. Metaphorically.
[10:57] You: hmm
[10:57] You: what happens when we get to the quantum level
[10:57] Terence McKenna: Assemble the virtual salami in the computer, trace the features. Abstract the features.
[10:57] You: and the whole no cloning theorem
[10:57] You: does that mean the original is destroyed
[10:57] Khannea Suntzu: Yah they call that destructive uploading
[10:57] Terence McKenna: You’re not operating at QC scale. We’re much too warm and noisy for that.
[10:57] You: have any experiments been done?
[10:58] You: well, i guess we would prove penrose wrong about the quantum brain then… if this succeeds
[10:58] Khannea Suntzu: Crude simulations of *parts* of single cells
[10:58] You: hmm
[10:58] You: crud.
[10:58] Terence McKenna: Quantum cloning only works for very, very simple systems. It doesn’t scale, and moreover it’s not necessary.
[10:58] You: examples?
[10:58] You: quantum cloning doesn’t work..
[10:58] You: you can’t clone quantum data o.O
[10:58] Terence McKenna: There’s no need to prove Penrose wrong. Penrose never had any evidence for his claims in the first place.
[10:58] You: lol
[10:59] Khannea Suntzu nods and pretends to know all about this stuff
[10:59] You: yes. penrose was a mathematician. his kind of evidence is a bit less than actual evidence o.O
[10:59] You: ;-P
[10:59] Terence McKenna: Ina, when you’re knocked on your head, or undergo general anaesthesia, or are cooled down (hypothermia) your EEG is scrambled temporarily, yet regenerates itself.
[10:59] You: i believe it has to do with plasticity
[10:59] Terence McKenna: You’re still considered the same persion, despite this dramatic (in quantum terms) intervention.
[11:00] You: for light concussions plasticity quickly rearranges
[11:00] You: hmm is that how you would disprove the brain being quantum?
[11:00] Khannea Suntzu: Yah but it gets interesting with electroconvulsive therapy
[11:00] Terence McKenna: The dynamic (EEG) is regenerated by the hardware robustly.
[11:00] Terence McKenna: Electroconvulsive = giant current. It’s a wonder you’re still there after it.
[11:01] You: lol..
[11:01] You: and i guess a number wouldn’t be there afterwards…
[11:01] Khannea Suntzu: Good indication just how redundant the system is.
[11:01] Terence McKenna: Very barbaric procedure, unly useful when considered what would happen in absence of it.
[11:01] You: well EEG does change you
[11:01] You: it’s used to treat schizophrenia and such iirc
[11:01] You: you’re not quite the same person afterwards
[11:01] You: then again… how are we defining “same person” o.O
[11:01] Khannea Suntzu: No you are completely reset.
[11:01] Khannea Suntzu: In fact
[11:01] Khannea Suntzu: You incarnate a different soul. The old soul goes back in the guff.
[11:02] Terence McKenna: Um, I hope Kannea is kidding.
[11:02] Khannea Suntzu: I am being ironic.
[11:02] You: yes, you become totally different… but i thought terence wanted to prove the brain wasn’t quantum because EEG displaces particles aplenty and yet doesn’t “change” your “self” o.O
[11:02] You: lol
[11:02] Terence McKenna: The point is that at anesthesia or hypothermia you’ve got completely flat EEG.
[11:02] Terence McKenna: None. Zilch.
[11:02] You: haha
[11:02] Khannea Suntzu gave you Khannea’s Funny Free Shit #1.
[11:02] Khannea Suntzu gave you Khannea’s Funny Free Shit #2.
[11:02] You: funny free shirt o.O
[11:03] Terence McKenna: Then it restarts, and it’s still you. Let’s forget electroconvulsive therapy for the moment.
[11:03] You: ugh. how do you define “you” ?
[11:03] Terence McKenna: I frankly don’t know enough about it to talk about it.
[11:03] You: obviously any shock thru your head is going to kill memories
[11:03] You: and disrupt thought processes
[11:03] Khannea Suntzu: My guess is that oploading by scanning will work later than a copy generated by incremental replacement from the inside using a lattice.
[11:03] You: “rewire” you so to speak
[11:03] Terence McKenna: Very good question. There are three answers.
[11:03] You: like taking a hdd thru a magnet
[11:03] Terence McKenna: One is whether you still consider yourself yourself.
[11:04] Khannea Suntzu: Self diagnosis test?
[11:04] You: that’s subjective lmfao
[11:04] Terence McKenna: Two is whether people and recordings are compatible with your new you.
[11:04] Khannea Suntzu: Yah but it will stand up in court
[11:04] You: you can never feel not lik yourself even after you’ve had like hippocampus surgery like Clive
[11:04] You: you’re yourself
[11:04] You: even if you can’t remember your past
[11:04] Terence McKenna: Third, and the least subjective, is somewhat more complicated.
[11:04] Terence McKenna: You need to instrument your noggin and record a lot of low level operation signatures.
[11:04] Terence McKenna: Think of it as EEG on steroids.
[11:05] Terence McKenna: The virtual you need to show the same deep fingerprints of operation.
[11:05] You: i think the human brain learns to adjust. plasticity. but sometimes it can’t get back to the homeostasis before a certain event. that doesnt mean you wont feel like yourself per se
[11:05] Khannea Suntzu: Symantec makes those after 2042
[11:05] Khannea Suntzu: Neurological selftests. Nasal spray.
[11:05] Terence McKenna: Plasticity doesn’t happen on EEG time scale.
[11:05] You: … symantec still exists in 2042? :-O
[11:05] Khannea Suntzu giggles
[11:05] Terence McKenna: It’s not a simple hash of a file.
[11:06] Terence McKenna: Let’s say we have a billion probes, and record the raw signals.
[11:06] Terence McKenna: Then extract operation signatures, which run to many TByte/h recorded.
[11:06] You: i think the third one is the only sure way
[11:06] Khannea Suntzu: Yep lattice. Nanoids in the spaces between the neurons.
[11:06] Terence McKenna: Ina: I think that too.
[11:06] You: others use IQ tests to test themselves after lobotomuy
[11:06] You: *!u even
[11:07] You: ok
[11:07] Terence McKenna: Current technology can only record pretty crude signatures. I would think it’s enough for simple animal experiments.
[11:07] Terence McKenna: Anyways, uploading is being done. It’s called brain modelling, a branch of computational neuroscience.
[11:07] Khannea Suntzu: However what we should be scared about
[11:08] Khannea Suntzu: Is if uploading is possible, other very scary things are also possible
[11:08] You: lol
[11:08] You: modeling isn’t uploading
[11:08] Terence McKenna: Definitely. Biologically inspired AI.
[11:08] You: that’s like data testing or buffing up a hdd
[11:08] Khannea Suntzu: Modelling, uploading, it is all the road to tampering
[11:08] Terence McKenna: Ina, what do you think is the difference between a model, and a real thing?
[11:08] Khannea Suntzu: SUPER addictive stuff
[11:08] You: see, i don’t doubt that computers are capable of storing data
[11:08] You: lots of it
[11:08] You: (albeit not long term… )
[11:08] You: but
[11:08] You: the interfacing is a pickle
[11:08] You: well, it’s the difference between theory and implementation
[11:09] You: model vs the real thing that is
[11:09] Terence McKenna: With the current crude approach you would upload a simple critter, a body phantom, and an environment model.
[11:09] Khannea Suntzu: Well if monkeys can grow a language gland, the modern brain can cache an interface nodule
[11:09] You: ?
[11:09] You: p.P
[11:09] Terence McKenna: There would be no need for interfacing. As I said, currently all approaches are destructive-scan. No original survives. Only copies.
[11:09] You: o.O
[11:09] Khannea Suntzu: We may need to grow the means to intyerface step by step
[11:10] You: ok..
[11:10] You: well without interfacing the technology is just theory…
[11:10] Terence McKenna: Computers can store data just fine, and if it’s in circulation that data is immortal.
[11:10] Terence McKenna: Ina, are you talking about nondestructive uploading?
[11:10] Terence McKenna: In any case you can’t allow the clone and the original diverge.
[11:10] You: say, the day when we can upload a human brain
[11:10] You: yup. no cloning theorem from quantum again…
[11:11] Terence McKenna: No, no, no. This has nothing to do with quantum mechanics.
[11:11] Terence McKenna: We’re talking about cloning state. Such as, keeping two running computers synchronized.
[11:11] Terence McKenna: Very basic seat-of-the-pants stuff.
[11:11] You: hm
[11:11] Terence McKenna: When you allow state of two formerly systems to bifurcate (fork) you’ve got two rapidly diverging indivduals.
[11:11] Khannea Suntzu: Who cares if we can upload, It will be much safer to simply replace cell by cell with more robust alternatives. You dont need to upload.
[11:12] You: two computers can’t be synchronized because…?
[11:12] Terence McKenna: At first much more similiar than identical twins, but they diverge exponentially. After a decade, it would be like a brother.
[11:12] You: o.O
[11:12] Terence McKenna: Two computers can be synchronized. But you’re talking about reading the state from your noggin into a computer, and keeping that synchronized with the origina.
[11:12] Khannea Suntzu: The only problem I see is legal. It is a form of procreation.
[11:13] Terence McKenna: There’s no point in doing that. You’re not experiencing anything new.
[11:13] Terence McKenna: And if the biology dies you can’t track that without losing bits yourself.
[11:13] Terence McKenna: So I would just nuke the original within a millisecond or so, and keep the copy. The copy is the original.
[11:13] Khannea Suntzu: Then *avoid* this dilemma
[11:14] Khannea Suntzu: Do the replacement gradual
[11:14] Terence McKenna: If you want to completely avoid, yes, exactly what Khannea says.
[11:14] Terence McKenna: However, if you die now, your only chance is cryonics.
[11:14] Terence McKenna: So the original will be destructively scanned.
[11:14] Terence McKenna: What most people do not realize that some of us might be immortal already.
[11:15] Khannea Suntzu: Well, I equate that treatment with a *really loud* electroshock. What is reconstructed is not neccessarilu acceeptable as me
[11:15] You: ?
[11:15] Terence McKenna: Disclaimer: assuming, cryonics works, and uploading works. Don’t sue me if you stay dead.
[11:15] You: already?
[11:15] You: haha!
[11:15] Terence McKenna: Khannea, I worked in cryonics for two years in R&D.
[11:15] Khannea Suntzu: Yes?
[11:15] You: did you get to revive anyone?
[11:16] Terence McKenna: I don’t think it’s anything as bad as you think it is. But, we don’t really know. All we know that we’ll get EEG regenerated from hippocampal slices.
[11:16] You: “we’ll”
[11:16] You: hmmm did you actually?
[11:16] Khannea Suntzu: I’ll assume it’ll be a very brutal experience. Damaging. Not lossless
[11:16] Terence McKenna: People who did it say it looks good. I haven’t seen it published yet.
[11:16] You: …
[11:16] Terence McKenna: Google for Cryobiology, and then look for Leitl.
[11:16] You: so… can we revive the early men who were frozen in the ice age?
[11:17] Terence McKenna: No. Modern cryonic suspension is something very different from freezing.
[11:17] Khannea Suntzu: That is so *you* being into cryobiology. Fits with your reputation :)
[11:17] You: lol
[11:17] Terence McKenna: It’s called vitrification, and it’s very new. Not many people have been vitrified yet.
[11:17] Terence McKenna: It’s basically about avoiding the ice phase, and turning biological tissue into supercooled glass instead.
[11:17] Khannea Suntzu: Wow
[11:17] Terence McKenna: Supercooled *water* glass. Not ice.
[11:18] Khannea Suntzu: That almost sounds hopeful
[11:18] Khannea Suntzu: Like a highresolution 3D photographic image of a person.
[11:18] Terence McKenna: It works similiar to the old cryonics techniques, except it uses novel ice blockers and novel cryoprotectants.
[11:18] Terence McKenna: The EM micrographs look very, very good. If I die, I want this to be done to me.
[11:18] Khannea Suntzu: Whats the current price for head>
[11:18] You: lol…
[11:19] Terence McKenna: 40 k$, IIRC. But you’re EUtrash, that won’t work.
[11:19] Khannea Suntzu: To distant
[11:19] Terence McKenna: You can spend up to a week on water ice before you’re flown out.
[11:19] Khannea Suntzu: Meh
[11:19] You: what state would “supercooled water glass” be on a typical phase diagram? o.O
[11:19] Terence McKenna: Yes. You need to be processed on ice.
[11:20] Khannea Suntzu: So if I were considering dying I’d have to fly to the US to await my processing
[11:20] You: so basically if you are decapitated, and your head is turned into supercooled glass, you can be revived?
[11:20] You: o.O
[11:20] Terence McKenna: You never change the phase. No enthalpy of ice formation. It just goes more viscious and viscuouser untill you’re literally at glass. It shatters very easily.
[11:20] Khannea Suntzu: Hey chris
[11:20] Christopher1983 Dreamscape: Hi
[11:20] Terence McKenna: Revived is too much to ask for. Most of the current damage occurs during devitrification during rewarming.
[11:20] Terence McKenna: Hi, Christopher.
[11:20] Christopher1983 Dreamscape: Hi
[11:21] You: melted glass.. entropy
[11:21] Terence McKenna: What we should see shortly is first viable renal implants.
[11:21] Khannea Suntzu: Indeed this treatment would require a very advanced uploading. Nothing else will work.
[11:21] Terence McKenna: We should see a very nice rehash of Suda’s work.
[11:21] You decline *Athena Isle, Second Shores (51, 48, 22) from A group member named Safra Jetcity.
[11:21] Terence McKenna: Yes, Khannea, exactly. Very astute.
[11:21] Terence McKenna: Nanoresurrection is your only other option.
[11:22] Terence McKenna: Do not rewarm, go in at cryogenic temperature (-130 C and below) and process there.
[11:22] Terence McKenna: Even more advanced than uploading.
[11:22] Terence McKenna: Whew, that was a lot of typing.
[11:22] You: hmm
[11:22] Terence McKenna: I think I’ll try voice at the next office hour slot.
[11:23] You: so basically, once you are cryogenically preserved, you can never be human again
[11:23] Terence McKenna: What does it mean to be human?
[11:23] Terence McKenna: Meat puppet?
[11:23] You: lol. actually, do you mind if i post a transcript of this on my new blog?
[11:23] You: this is the first interesting discussion i’ve had on this alt
[11:23] Terence McKenna: Sure, if you remove the typos. Very embarrassing.
[11:23] Khannea Suntzu: Heh and its only the first event
[11:23] You: hrm… yes meat puppet = human
[11:23] You: think… Matrix
[11:23] You: when the agents tell Neo he’s “only human”
[11:23] You: o.O
[11:24] Terence McKenna: Making a meat puppet from a corpsicle would be tough. Even tougher for a neuro patient (=frozen head).
[11:24] You: lol i’ve had a few typos too ;-P
[11:24] You: lol
[11:24] You: well if you de-freeze the head…
[11:24] Khannea Suntzu wonders how she can accumulate 40.000 euro in the next 20-30 years
[11:24] You: meat puppet occurs
[11:24] You: even if scrambled meat puppet…
[11:25] Khannea Suntzu: Ok now a scary question terence
[11:25] Terence McKenna: I’m a bit careful about nanotechnology, because it is rather tough. It certainly won’t arrive in our lifetimes, so you can’t expect to profit from in vivo or even nanoresurrection easily.
[11:25] You: 40k euro really isn’t much
[11:25] Khannea Suntzu: To me it is
[11:25] Khannea Suntzu: Very much
[11:25] You: but i assume the technology varies in pricing
[11:25] Terence McKenna: Unfortunately, current prices are too cheap. Way too cheap.
[11:25] You: hrm… nanotech technically already exists
[11:25] Khannea Suntzu: Terence, say I would decide somewhere age 70 I would want to quit. Is there an unofficial way to synthesize a natural death?
[11:25] You: well if you count the “smart particles” the government uses in airports and such
[11:26] You: nano-ish
[11:26] Terence McKenna: The only way this is going to work is when cryonic suspension is the terminal part of the critical care medicine, and is payed by insurance.
[11:26] Terence McKenna: Ina, under nanotechnology most transhumanists understand MNT, aka nanorobotics
[11:26] Terence McKenna: Building objects basically by forming and breaking chemical bonds under numerical control.
[11:27] Terence McKenna: This is to what is commonly described as nanotechnolgy what a nuke is to a match.
[11:27] Khannea Suntzu: ..yah
[11:27] Terence McKenna: Very different capabilities. Programmable matter.
[11:27] Khannea Suntzu: “naieve model”
[11:27] You: ^.~
[11:27] Terence McKenna: Atoms turning software. Ability to download blueprints, and have it extruded on site in minutes to hours.
[11:28] Terence McKenna: Very, very scary shit, actually.
[11:28] Terence McKenna: Most people don’t understand that it completely destroys the world as we know it.
[11:28] Terence McKenna: Most of what you do in SL can be done in reality, and more, far more.
[11:28] Khannea Suntzu: Trust me I know. The *SPIN OFF*
[11:28] You: lol
[11:28] Khannea Suntzu: Boggles the mind
[11:29] Terence McKenna: The game-changer is that nanotechnology allows you superintelligence, very soon.
[11:29] Khannea Suntzu: Year?
[11:29] You: lol
[11:29] Terence McKenna: Also, it allows you to run at least a factor of million faster than now.
[11:29] You: sooner than when actual non destructive upload can occur?
[11:29] Khannea Suntzu: YEAR? *more insistent*
[11:29] Terence McKenna: Overnight is 3000 years? Something like that.
[11:29] You: i think the bar would have to do with the no cloning theorem. i’m
[11:29] You: a believer of the quantum brain
[11:29] Terence McKenna: Khannea, which year?
[11:30] Khannea Suntzu mutters angrily
[11:30] You: … and as for download atomic blueprints… yes, but once you read them, it would be destroyed
[11:30] Terence McKenna: Ina, I would be glad to disabuse you of your QC obsession (after all, I’m a quantum mechanic of sorts, by virtue of having had QC in school).
[11:30] Khannea Suntzu: I want I want I want
[11:30] You: lol
[11:30] Ina Infinity believes the human brain is basically quantum computer ;-P
[11:30] You: ^ strong conjecture o.O
[11:31] Terence McKenna: Ina, can you put shtetl-optimized into Google?
[11:31] You decline Extropia Central Nexus, Extropia Core (127, 100, 22) from A group member named Sophrosyne Stenvaag.
[11:31] Khannea Suntzu: Quantum is strange, the brain is strange so the brain must be quantum
[11:31] Terence McKenna: It’s Aaron Scottson’s blog, and there’s a wealth of knowledge about what QC can and cannot do there.
[11:31] You: quantum is pretty normal once you get used to it ;-P
[11:31] Khannea Suntzu: Then you dont understand it!
[11:32] Khannea Suntzu giggles
[11:32] You: bahhh
[11:32] Terence McKenna: Ina, I survived Quantum Chemistry III, it’s pretty vanilla to me.
[11:32] You: qcs can’t solve np’s in known time
[11:32] You: -.- let’s see him win the millennium prize
[11:32] You: ah i thought you were referring to quantum computing
[11:32] You: yah i took grad quantum too. but that’s just basic math though
[11:32] Terence McKenna: I only follow Quantum Cryptography and Quantum Computing at layman level.
[11:32] You: dunno stuff like what’s his name-eckard theorem. matrix mechanics.
[11:33] You: the no cloning theorem is jargon from quantum computing
[11:33] Terence McKenna: I’m a chemist by training, with molecular biology and polymer science sprinkled it, I’ve worked in cryobiology, and now I work in IT.
[11:33] You: but it’s based on basic qm though
[11:33] Terence McKenna: Yes, but no-cloning only applies to entangled pairs.
[11:33] You: lol trying to make the computers to upload brains to, now? ;-P
[11:34] Terence McKenna: Actually, I went into chemistry because I wanted to do nanotechnology since highschool.
[11:34] You: yes..
[11:34] You: typically nanotech majors would be bioengineering…
[11:34] Khannea Suntzu: Hmm he is bald. Check. he talks funny, check. Cigar, check. Doctor evil.
[11:34] You: but it’s good you studied a traditional major… *engineering is really b/s nowadays
[11:34] Terence McKenna: Actually, you can clone despite non-cloning, and with efficiency high enough that quantum cryptography is not nearly that secure people think it is.
[11:35] Terence McKenna: In any case, you should look into biophysics of computation.
[11:35] Terence McKenna: The noise level there completely cooks your quantum weirdness, if any.
[11:35] You: oh?
[11:36] You: well noise has to do with limitations in measurement… why should that cook qw?
[11:36] Terence McKenna: If you look at major people (Koch, for instance), they point and laugh at Penroses of this world.
[11:36] Terence McKenna: No. Noise is intrinsic to the system.
[11:36] Terence McKenna: Brownian noise. Thermal noise.
[11:36] Terence McKenna: Neural hardware is quite amazing, because it works very close to what is possible at its noise level.
[11:37] Terence McKenna: In fact, it manages to use the noise to enhance information processing.
[11:37] Terence McKenna: Ina, since you’ve got scientific training, can I recommend you some very good textbooks on the problem?
[11:38] Terence McKenna: Hmm, should I give some references?
[11:38] You: lol
[11:38] You: sure..
[11:39] You: although i don’t do this stuff anymore.
[11:39] You: nowadays i’m just an artist ^.~
[11:39] Terence McKenna: Anyways, a good soft book on the problem is “The Quest for Consciousness — a Neurobiological Approach” by Christof Koch.
[11:39] Terence McKenna: If you’re not afraid of math, two grad to postdoc level books are.
[11:39] You: oh math <3
[11:39] You: nah math was always the easy thing
[11:39] Terence McKenna: "Spikes -- exploring the neural code" by Rieke, Warland et al.
[11:39] Khannea Suntzu: Ya have a nice book for me too, something with popup pics?
[11:40] You: ok, but anyway though... brownian noise -- isn't that quantum?
[11:40] You: well, yes, it occurs on the molecular level
[11:40] Terence McKenna: "Biophysics of computation -- information processing in single neurons" by Christof Koch.
[11:40] You: but... its a "macro" quantum effect?
[11:40] You: khannea - "the quantum universe"
[11:40] You: or just read "the emperor's new mind"
[11:40] You: i read that in high school
[11:40] Terence McKenna: Khannea, the Quest for Consciousness one is very good. Almost no math.
[11:40] You: i guess that turned me into a penrose groupie o.O
[11:41] Khannea Suntzu: Hmmmm ok
[11:41] Terence McKenna: In fact, no math at all. I just checked.
[11:41] You: books without math are scary. too many words -.-
[11:41] Terence McKenna: Yes, but the Quest for Consciousness is for philosophers, and normal people.
[11:42] Angelica Losangeles is Offline
[11:42] Terence McKenna: Anyways, Ina, read the Biophysics of Computation one.
[11:42] Angelica Losangeles is Online
[11:42] Terence McKenna: It illustrates all level of computation occuring in cells and below, some of them speculative.
[11:42] Terence McKenna: He explicitly addresses the quantum computation hypothesis, and why it's unlikely to be true.
[11:43] You: unlikely ^.~
[11:43] Terence McKenna: Even is quantum processing occurs, IT DOESN'T MATTER.
[11:43] Terence McKenna: When you're drinking a cup of strong coffee, it changes you far more than the most delicate QC could buffer.
[11:43] Khannea Suntzu giggles
[11:44] Khannea Suntzu: Good lSD trip?
[11:44] Terence McKenna: You're developing, you're changing in the course of your normal life.
[11:44] You: lol
[11:44] Terence McKenna: Yes, LSD is pretty disruptive, as well. Way stronger than coffee.
[11:45] Terence McKenna: You're still thinking your identity is conserved, even after some pretty harrowing things.
[11:45] Terence McKenna: So, no need to assume that vitrifying your noggin will lose some of the magic, enough to drop the you on the floor.
[11:45] Terence McKenna: But, read the book, and see for yourself.
[11:45] Khannea Suntzu: Oh I know what a fragile mess sanity and identity is, trust me. Most people dont have an idea just how tenous all that is.,
[11:45] A group member named Mia Lundquist gave you Mia Lundquist Galleries Annex, Gorlanova (140, 37, 43).
[11:46] Terence McKenna: These people should take a strong dose of hallucinogenics, and be prepared to be scared shitless.
[11:46] Khannea Suntzu: Love, I get migraines and if I get them 2-3 weeks nonstop every day
[11:46] Khannea Suntzu: My mind simply desintegrates
[11:46] Khannea Suntzu: I lose myself and I feel like I am dying
[11:46] Terence McKenna: Ouch. I've hard very bad things about that. Auras, too?
[11:47] Khannea Suntzu: The worst diagnosed migarines in the netherlands. Top ten stuff.
[11:47] Terence McKenna: Jesus fuck. I'm genuinely sorry to hear that.
[11:47] Khannea Suntzu: It's life.
[11:47] Khannea Suntzu: Shit happens
[11:47] Khannea Suntzu: Thats why I was out a month last year
[11:47] Terence McKenna now understands
[11:48] Khannea Suntzu: Yah life goes on.
[11:48] You: wow..
[11:48] Terence McKenna: Do you have something that triggers it, or do they appear nevertheless?
[11:48] You: would you go for that cryo stuff?
[11:49] Terence McKenna: It would be murder, though probably legal in Netherlands, and Switzerland (but only for natives).
[11:49] You: meh. get a doctor to approve your request for euthanasia
[11:49] You: and ...
[11:49] You: a weird procedure for it
[11:49] You: and voila.
[11:49] Khannea Suntzu: Chocolate, stress, banana, some nuns, fat food, sleeping too much, sleeping not enough, understimulation, overstimulation
[11:49] Terence McKenna: It would be still murder.
[11:49] Khannea Suntzu: The list goes on
[11:50] Terence McKenna: Damn, that sucks. I'm sorry we can do nothing. At least not yet.
[11:50] Khannea Suntzu: It would be a bit sad if after freezing my corpse get flown back for an autopsy
[11:50] Terence McKenna: I think autopsy is mandatory?
[11:50] Khannea Suntzu: Yah in holland it is, slightest doubt
[11:50] You: so when can we do something o.O
[11:51] Khannea Suntzu: And that always includes cranial testing and drilling
[11:51] Terence McKenna: I'm not up on migraine therapy. I'd hazard decades, if at all.
[11:51] Terence McKenna: Yes, the whole bit. You'd be not only dead, you'd be information-theoretically dead.
[11:51] Khannea Suntzu: They just did a study. The amount of microscarring in longterm migraine victims was comparable to people who survived hard car crashes
[11:52] Terence McKenna: Aargh. So it is slow death, in increments.
[11:52] Khannea Suntzu: Thats the worrying bit
[11:52] Terence McKenna: We vanillas save most of it for the years and especially for the final weeks in the geriatrics ward.
[11:53] Terence McKenna: We're just as mush as you, if not more, when it's all over.
[11:53] Khannea Suntzu: Yah but that shit dont hurt
[11:53] Terence McKenna: "I can feel my mind going, Dave".
[11:53] Terence McKenna: No, it doesn't hurt.
[11:53] Khannea Suntzu giggles
[11:54] Terence McKenna: I've been reading the critical care medicine list in the last half decade, or so. Quite interesting things to be gleaned there, after a while.
[11:54] Khannea Suntzu: I think 20 years would be enough for some damage control yes.
[11:54] Terence McKenna: Is it radical-driven?
[11:54] FWord Utorid is Online
[11:54] Terence McKenna: Have you tried antioxidants, especially R-lipoate?
[11:55] Khannea Suntzu: I tried vitamins. C. Triggers attacks.
[11:55] Terence McKenna: I would also try acetyl-l-carnitine, but *very* carefully. It can trigger epileptic seizures in suszeptibles, and migraine might be related.
[11:55] Khannea Suntzu: Only thing which stops attacks is hypothermia
[11:55] Khannea Suntzu: But thats a bit crude
[11:56] Terence McKenna: R-lipoate might work, but I would be careful with it, too.
[11:56] Khannea Suntzu: I'll look into it
[11:56] Terence McKenna: Just a hunch. Based on no idea whatsoever.
[11:56] Khannea Suntzu: My therapist came up with anticonvulsants. Antiepileptics
[11:56] Khannea Suntzu: I got into serious trouble with the depakine
[11:57] You have offered friendship to Khannea Suntzu
[11:57] You have offered friendship to Terence McKenna
[11:57] Khannea Suntzu: Bah enough of this
[11:57] Khannea Suntzu is Online
[11:57] Terence McKenna: Then, you should stay away from acetyl-l-carnitine. Unfortunately, it's rather synergistic with the R-lipoate. But, R-lipoate should do fine wihout.
[11:57] Terence McKenna is Online
[11:57] You: i'm hopping over to a dr dobbs meeting
[11:57] Terence McKenna: Thanks, Ina.
[11:57] You: interesting discussion you two ;-P
[11:57] You: look forward to more
[11:57] You: ttyl!
[11:57] Terence McKenna: What's going on at Dr. Dobbs?
[11:58] You: something about the tech museum
[11:58] Terence McKenna: Allright, have fun. Thanks for being with us.
[11:58] You: np. thanks again
[11:58] You: have fun ^.~
[11:58] You: *poofs

Category: Chats

Who is Ina Centaur?

A 25-year old American polymath of Taiwanese ancestry pretending to be old and Caucasian in Second Life. Semi-retired independent scholar also dabbling as an independent artist in new media, particularly theatre and the humanities—notably Shakespeare. Programmer, playwright and novelist. Formal academic background in, philosophy, and bioengineering.

This is largely a personal blog which isn't always up-to-date. There's no one definitive way to stalk me ;-).